ShepherdingNeed: Should I Ask for a Shepherding Call?

ShepherdingNeed wrote [Jul 28, 2016 at 12:44 pm]:

Hello. A little over 4 years ago, my ex-wife committed adultery and left to move in with her affair partner. At the time, our daughter was 11 and as you can imagine, it was a very painful time for both of us. At this time, my ex sees her daughter once a week, generally.

Over the past 4 years, there have been a few in our congregation who have been supportive, including two elders with whom I'm close friends, and 2 or 3 sisters have been very loving toward my daughter.

What I'm struggling with is that during the past 4 years we haven't had a shepherding call, including when the CO visits. And no  Elder has ever brought up the subject of her mother with my daughter (would of course have to be at the Hall or with me present).

I really feel a bit ridiculous asking for she and I to have an official shepherding call since it seems like a situation that obviously calls for it in my mind. I don't know that she would open up, but it would be nice for her to have the opportunity. In addition, while our meeting attendance is good, we struggle getting out in the ministry and I haven't accepted any responsibilities although they have offered them to me. So we're not really doing what we should be, another red flag that things aren't quite right.

I respect your insights and would greatly enjoy hearing your thoughts. If my thinking is off, please let me know. Thank you so much, and great background picture.

JW Advisor: Thank you for your honesty, brother.

The thing is that the elders only perform shepherding calls when they are aware of a problem. Thus, they may not actually be aware of any systemic problem with you. The fact that they offered responsibilities to you suggests that they view you as a spiritually mature brother, which is good. But as you noticed, that perception can tend to leave you without the help you need. So sometimes we simply have to bite the bullet and ask for the help we need.

So, brother, what I want you to do is approach the brothers and ask them for the shepherding call. Let them know what your needs are. Also, choose an elder to be your mentor, someone you feel you can draw close to. When you do that, you will feel more comfortable sharing your concerns with him and he can also be more attuned to your spiritual needs.

The thing is that the elders are humans and they have a limited amount of attention span to spare. As such, sometimes someone can fall through the cracks. We can be glad, though, that we have many elders in most congregations, instead of just one or two and that ministerial servants can assist in elder roles when needed. So there are usually plenty of elders and proxy elders available to assist us, even if we have to ask for the assistance sometimes.

The elders in a healthy congregation truly love everyone in the flock. The elders in my congregation do, and certainly the elder whom I currently call my mentor.

The most important thing we can do for ourselves is to develop a support system, which responsibility belongs to each one of us to do for ourselves. The support system does not simply make itself. So build a support system. Obviously, you have an apartment or home, so why not ask friends over from the congregation from time to time. Look for elder ones that you and your daughter can help. Make play dates for your daughter with others in the congregation. If she is in her teens, then encourage her to branch out to other young sisters in the congregation who are good examples, maybe even suggest a spiritually mature sister for her to view as a mentor. We all need a strong support system, and we can certainly have such a system with the loving brothers and sisters in the congregation. Just thinking about it makes my heart swell to bursting. But they may not really know your needs if you do not step forward and tell someone.

The thing is, you are not a sheep who has wandered from the flock, so that is why they have not given you the attention you may need. But instead of drawing away from the flock to get that attention, draw near to the flock and make friends with our brothers and sisters. This is the gift Jehovah has provided us in the congregation. By drawing closer to our brothers and sisters, praying for them, asking for their help, getting to know them, we draw closer to God because Jehovah want's us to draw close to them and be a family.

I have not bothered to provide scriptures here, because this is straight out of my heart in love and appreciation for your plight. God's word tells us to love our brothers and sisters, and sometimes we show that love by depending upon them and opening up to them about our own needs so that they have an opportunity to broaden out and sacrifice for us. In that way we encourage them to get benefit by becoming more than what they already are. Of course, we do not want to do that all the time, nor turn it into a dynamic, but we need to be mature enough to recognize when we are surrounded by those who love us and want to help.

And thank you for this opportunity to express my love for the brothers and sisters in our organization. They truly do make me happy, and you sharing your concern has made me very happy to be able to help you and give full vindication for my having started this site. Thank you, brother. [July 28, 2016 at 7:02 pm]

ShepherdingNeed wrote [July29, 2016 at 6:17 am]:

Hi. . . . Thanks so much for the thoughtful response, you brought up some points that hadn't occurred to me. I'll definitely be approaching the elders and requesting a shepherding call for myself and my daughter. Thanks again.

JW Advisor: We're glad to help. Thanks for sharing it with us, brother. Take care. [July 29, 2016 at 7:04 am]

ResignationStation: Could Disfellowshipping/Disassociation be Modified?

ResignationStation wrote [July 23, 2016 at 11:41 pm]:

Hey JW Advisors, hope you are doing well.

I just want to run something past you that a friend of mine sent me and see what you think. . . .

He wrote, [in effect]:

Couldn't we take just one term, "disassociation" or "disfellowshipping" and discard the other? Or maybe we could call it simply "resigning". It could provide more wiggle room, as neither term is found in the Bible. Then imagine that the things that a Witness needs to do are:

1) qualify as an unbaptized publisher.

2) dedicate your life to Jehovah in prayer.

3) tell the coordinator that you have dedicated your life to Jehovah and want to get baptized and answer the questions for baptism to be approved by all 3 elders.

4) get baptized at the next assembly or convention.

and, if you leave:

5) resign as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, either by words or by actions, resulting in being treated as a worldly person, and shunning would be left up to each member's conscience.

6) To become one of Jehovah's Witnesses again, you would have to go through steps 1-4, basically get baptised again.

What are your thoughts?

[Edit: Brackets mine. Friend's message rewritten for clarity]

JW Advisor: Disfellowshipping is a word that covers the scripture, "God is faithful, by whom you were called into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:9) It is a calling, not a social club. Therefore, to remove them from Christ's body is to "disfellowship" them.

Paul further wrote, "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: 'I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.' '"Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves," says Jehovah, "and quit touching the unclean thing"'; '"and I will take you in."' '"And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me," says Jehovah, the Almighty.'" (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Paul's words were spoken to the entire congregation, and there was no room in his words for it being a conscience matter. If a brother does not stop speaking to them, they "become a sharer in his wicked works", and thus become worthy of being disfellowshipped their self. (2 John 10-11)

On the other hand, of apostates, we can derive the word "disassociate" from the scripture that says, "And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to associating together, to the taking of meals, and to prayers." (Acts 2:42) Apostates have chosen not to associate with us in peace, choosing neither to believe as we believe nor to allow us to associate peacefully.

Thus, it is the place of the congregation to "disfellowship" an individual, forcing them out. While one who is "disassociated" has made a choice for themselves to leave the organization.

However, that is not to say that the distinction between the two words is not arbitrary as the word "associate" is actually used interchangeably with "fellowship" in the scriptures. The reason for the distinction we draw is because it communicates whether one left by choice or was forced out because they failed to live up to Bible standards. It may seem minor, but one has made a conscious decision to not be a part of the organization, while the other was unable to maintain Bible standards, which is why apostates are considered "disassociated" rather than "disfellowshipped", because they choose not to speak in agreement with the congregation.

It is also a matter of comfortable phonaesthetics. To say one has "disfellowshipped himself from the congregation" is awkward to the ear and gives the thought that he has punished himself. And to say that the congregation has "disassociated" a person suggests that they have caused him to remove his association from the congregation, as if the congregation is not worthy of him. However, as currently used, they are both comfortable. (At least by my personal opinion.)

But I assure you, both terms are quite scriptural, even if the terms themselves do not appear in the Scriptures, because the base words from which they are taken, and their meanings, do appear in most translations. "Excommunication" is also scriptural, but it is also very formal and does not carry with it the personal impact upon the individual or the congregation. It also does not carry the full extent to which one is to stop interacting with the person. "Resign" is neither a Scriptural term nor does it carry any of the impact of what is taking place. "Disfellowship" and "disassociate" give full indication of the complete separation to take place between our members and those who pose a spiritual danger to our members.

The Scriptures are clear about this practice, even if they do not give a name to it. It clearly involves not speaking to the person, not eating with the person, not associating with them in any way, even revoking their admittance into the congregation while they continue in their state. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John 10-11)

Giving a name to ideas is an acceptable practice. Just because an idea does not have a name in the Scriptures does not mean we should not name it. Naming things, just as naming anyone or anything else, dignifies it and makes it easily referable for convenience.

"He was disfellowshipped" is simply more convenient to say, if a little less natural, than "he was removed from the congregation." Likewise, "he disassociated himself" is easier than "he has withdrawn his membership", and saying "he has stopped associating with us", which is also not as convenient to say, does not quite carry with it the full depth of the matter.

I hope I have been a little clearer than mud.

Your friend seems to be seeking wiggle room to choose to associate with a disfellowshipped / disassociated individual. This is dangerous thinking for both him and the one whom we seek to bring to repentance, as the goal is to sadden the individual into repenting, which they do not get if they still have fellowship. (2 Corinthians 7:8-11) I would suggest gently correcting your friend's thinking. (2 Timothy 2:24-26) [July 24, 2016 at 12:43 am]

Also, regarding the words "basically, get baptized again", the fact is that we are already dedicated to Jehovah and know what is required of us. Once we have made that dedication, there is no going back on it. We can either fulfill that dedication or not.

To dedicate anew suggests one was never dedicated in the first place, which would be false. They made their dedication, and simply by returning, it demonstrates their desire to fulfill that dedication once again. They can ask Jehovah for forgiveness and his help to live up to their dedication, but their dedication has not been revoked. They are being held to it by Jehovah.

Re-dedication is not needed, is unscriptural and is technically lacking accountability for their previous dedication and accountability is a serious matter with Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) We are the ones with the responsibility to live up to our first dedication.

To dedicate ourselves again is to declare ourselves innocent of failing to live up to our previous dedication. Such presumptuousness is unscriptural. (Isaiah 43:25) Simply by returning to fulfilling our dedication, Jehovah has promised to give us his forgiveness. (Revelation 2:4, 5)

Also, who would want to go through the hassle of answering the baptismal questions again? If they were out for 40 years, perhaps, but not for most. There's no need to make it more difficult for them to return. All that is needed is for them to live up to the dedication they already made. [July 24, 2016 at 1:37 am]

ResignationStation wrote [July 24, 2016 at 12:41 pm]:

Thanks JWA for putting my thoughts into words regarding rebaptism, and scriptures. His idea didn't sound right to me.

I don't think he is trying to seek wiggle room regarding disfellowshipping, I think he is more concerned about us being akin to a "captive organization" as described by Angus Stewart in the ARC hearing. The brother is from Australia. I wish I could just give him your email and then you could correspond, but I won't do that because I  think you have enough on your plate. But I, myself, have a few questions I would like to run past you as well. I will do that in the next email. Have to get ready for the meeting.

JW Advisor: The JW Advisor site is all about answering questions. I'd be glad to answer his questions. It doesn't take me very long to answer most questions. Thank you for being considerate, though. A stop-gap is welcome if you just want to forward the tough questions to me. [July 24, 2016 at 3:09 pm]

JW Advisor: I wonder if Mr. Stewart of the Australian Royal Commission considers Australia a "captive country". After all, it has laws, police, courts, judges, and prisons so there is no true "freedom of movement" there according the definition they are applying to Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses do not imprison wrong-doers nor do we have an armed police force.

Leaving the option to shun up to the individual members poses a couple problems I immediately identified:

1) Its not at all scriptural and...

2) Unrepentant wrong-doers would essentially be allowed to influence the congregation and would have no incentive to clean up their lives.

To address point 2 by drawing a comparison, would it be acceptable for citizens of a country to choose which laws they would obey according to their own conscience [without repercussions]? Of course not, because it would allow criminals to operate with impunity. Likewise, in the Christian Congregation, allowing individuals to basically pick and chose who to shun would allow unrepentant wrong-doers full association with anyone who does not shun them, and the entire congregation (organization) would be at risk of losing God's favor. (Revelation 2:20)

The Governing Body has no interest in forcing people to be here. The motivation behind the shunning arrangement is to maintain the spiritual and moral purity of the Christian Congregation. [July 25, 2016 at 12:09 am]

AcademicRegret: How Can My Son Find a Job After Bethel?

The following was not so much a question, but was a response to the blog post "Do Jehovah's Witnesses 'Prohibit' College Education?" over at Opposers Dismythed, which required counsel.

AcademicRegret wrote [July 16, 2016 at 11:37 am]:

I grew up in Vancouver, Washington. Our congregation elders felt in 1980's-1990's like congregations where they were attending college and especially would have a party for graduation, lacked spirituality. Those who attended college did not take the end of the system seriously.

More recently an elder in Maine frowned on me taking a three month course to help me provide for my three children. When I came back and said I was not able to attend, he said he was relieved and I made the right choice.

Additionally, when it came to my sons the circuit overseer said, why would we consider an education beyond high school when each of my children could receive the equivalent of a four year degree at Bethel? Bethel laid off. My son has no education and works 15 hours a week for a brother and lives in another brothers attic apartment. He cannot afford an apartment, wife, kids...

JW Advisor: Sister, I would like you to examine your statements. This is counsel I am giving you with all sincerity of heart.

You repeatedly stated, "elders . . ." or "circuit overseer . . .". You have the power to let them know that you have considered the issue and reviewed the November 1, 1992 Watchtower article, pp. 15-21, "Education With a Purpose" as well as the March 8th, 1998 Awake! article, p. 21, "The Bible’s Viewpoint — Does the Bible Discourage Education?".

Please, do not have a complaining spirit about the organization based upon the interpretations of overseers. Only our literature should be the last word on the subject. I simply want to bring to your attention that a complaining spirit leads to apostasy. (Jude 16) The elders represent the organization, but they are not perfect and therefore do not perfectly represent the organization. (Romans 7:14; 2 Corinthians 4:7) The publications give the final word on matters from the governing body, wrong or right. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

I would also like to remind you that the overseers cannot restrict you from any service to the organization, nor discipline you or your son, based upon going to college. Words are words, but your own words and opinions can spread like wildfire, and like gangrene. (2 Timothy 2:14-18; James 3:5-10) Please, sister, let it go before it deprives you of your relationship with Jehovah.

But most importantly, these men are simply looking out for your spiritual welfare. They too realize that such decisions are yours to make. Please treat them with respect as those who are looking out for our souls. (Hebrews 13:17) [July 16, 2016 at 12:15 pm]

Bethel does not "lay off" as it never "hired" them to begin with. What they do is ask for volunteers who are prepared and know that when they leave Bethel, they are not going to have anything more than what they came in with. (Proverbs 22:3) It's a sacrifice. You cannot blame the organization for yours or your son's own shortsightedness. They are trained in many skills, and it is advisable for your son to seek a job using those skills.

Your son does not need a college education to get a job. What he needs is to demonstrate that he has the skills necessary to do the job. He can also put his work at Bethel on his resume. They are indeed qualified skills.

I advise you to help your son be marketable with the skills he learned at Bethel. Read up on them, go on the internet and find out how to market your son's particular skillset without a college education.

Your son does not need to earn $100,000 a year. What he needs to do is learn how to live simply and maximize his potential. (Philippians 4:12, 13) That is not the organization's responsibility. It is your responsibility as a parent to help him (Proverbs 22:6) and his responsibility as someone with job skills seeking to find employment to do everything in his power to make that happen, continually. (Proverbs 14:23)

Jobs are not really that hard to find. (Proverbs 21:5) The problem often lies with the fact that some people set the bar too high for themselves to fulfill or don't put in the time necessary to achieve their goals. (Romans 12:16)

I understand you feel powerless, sister, but accountability is the beginning of success. (Galatians 6:7) A person that does not hold themselves accountable for their own decisions will go nowhere or will be of no use to anyone. What your son needs is to learn to be self-sufficient. (1 Timothy 6:8)

You can't let other people do the thinking for you. (Proverbs 14:15) You have to put in the effort. (Proverbs 31:17) [July 16, 2016 at 5:03 pm]

Then there's the fact that they never promise that the volunteers would be able to "retire" with the organization paying their way. The organization makes no promises about what will happen to them after they leave Bethel, and definitely give no promises about long-term attendance at Bethel. In fact, they make it clear that most spend only a few years at Bethel. . . . [July 16, 2016 at 6:32 pm]

Look at longshoremen. They work for a few months out of the year. What do you think they do the rest of the year? They go look for jobs with their other skills. [July 16, 2016 at 6:37 pm]

I hope you will give this counsel proper consideration and take it to heart. [July 16, 2016 at 7:12 pm]

JW Advisor: AcademicRegret, thank you for sharing. As mentioned, our publications do not prohibit you from taking classes, or going to college. As was pointed out, there are and have never been congregational sanctions for taking classes or going to college. I can agree that there were elders and COs who said the things you mentioned, but before accepting those sayings as true, always look up what's printed on the matter from our publications and make your choices based on that information...ALWAYS. No one can tell you to do something or to not do something that contradicts what's in our publications. [July 16, 2016 at 5:09 pm]

Our opposers just like to caricature it, basically. The facts are that serving at Bethel is voluntary, and Jws are not anywhere near obligated to go there.

I was thinking also, along the lines of Bethelites not just sitting in their rooms and not doing anything that would make them employable, that they are busy people. One could ask: "what do you think they do there all day?"

They gain experience, with no financial cost to themselves, working on the IT department, construction, data entry, receptionist, telecommunications, and a whole host of fields that would make them skilled workers. [July 16, 2016 at 10:19 pm]

PrioritizingTheFaith: How Do I Talk to My Boss About Withdrawing my Compromise?

PrioritizingTheFaith wrote [June 27, 2016 2:57 pm]:

I basically know what I need to do, but I would like your opinion on something. [...]

When I interviewed with this employer this year, I was asked about the schedule I wanted. I told my boss I could not work Sundays (as any shift would take me from the meetings) but I could work any other time, and he offered me the day shift as that's what he needed. He told me I would not have to worry about Sundays. He did not tell me about the projects that would require me to work some Sundays. But I'm ok with giving him some Sundays.

Shortly after getting hired, I had to work two consecutive Sundays because we have projects on the weekends at times and they will not stand up to the customer to get this changed. We do not have the manpower to have a non-negotiable Sunday project day, but that's another story.

I had to miss a meeting two Sundays ago because of this, and I have public talk July 17th that was scheduled on May 25th, and my work schedule is out, and I have to work Sunday July 10th, and Sunday July 17th (the date of my talk).

There is no way I'm missing my talk. It was scheduled over a month ago.

The advice I would need is exactly how to approach him about this. He told me I would not have to worry about Sundays, but since I've been hired, I've missed about 6 meetings this year on Sunday, and now I'm being asked to give up two more, including my talk, in back-to-back weeks.

Of course, this is upsetting and nonsense because I believe I was lied to. He knew the weekend project day, and did not tell me about it.

Any advice would be appreciated, and I am going to Jehovah about this.

JW Advisor: I commend you for seeking advice on this matter in spite of knowing what you need to do. (Proverbs 15:22) It shows humility. I can understand this situation, and did it myself once. But you should understand that the fact that you compromised after telling him you needed Sundays off gives him ammunition to use against you. (Daniel 6:4-5) So if you want to stand your ground now, it could be seen as grounds for termination and you would have to accept the consequences. However, if there is paperwork establishing that you needed Sundays off, you may have legal recourse, though the fact that you compromised weakens your case.

The fact is, if we want to represent Jehovah well, we need to be people of our word. (James 5:12) If you say you need Sundays off, never compromise, stand your ground. Don't accept their attempts at finagling your meetings. Even if you have personal issues that cause you to miss meetings, your stand in the sight of people in the world should not change or be able to be compromised. (Proverbs 29:25)

The fact is, you have a dishonest employer who is seeking to test your commitment to your ideals and your willingness to compromise your beliefs in order to put the company first. He wants to see you as a company man, not realizing that to be a good company man, one needs to be a good servant of Jehovah. Without that, you cannot have the other. (Luke 16:10-13) They hired you knowing that you did not want to work Sundays and explained to them why. If I were you, I would emphasize that to them when they try to say, "But you have worked Sundays." Also emphasize that you felt pressured and threatened by the potential of losing your job but that you are ready to correct the situation.

But before any of that, I recommend explaining tactfully that you believe you compromised your principles when you gave up even just one Sunday for work, and that you don't think it provided your employer with confidence in you to be able to represent their company. The company needs people with high standards whom they can rely upon. By compromising your stand for your faith, you showed that the company also could not rely upon you when the chips are down. But now you wish to correct that situation and stand firm and be someone the company can put their trust in for loyalty and steadfastness.

So now, as to how to provide a solution if your boss still needs more, you might be able to negotiate a work-around. (I recommend attempting that before giving a flat-out refusal to work Sundays. Maybe you could choose one other day in the week to put in some extra hours to make up for the hours you miss going to meetings, and maybe come in early or late to put in a couple of hours on Sunday before or after your meetings. But you should make it clear that your service to God comes first. Our standing firm serves as a witness. (Matthew 10:16-18)

Next time, remember that the firmness of your stand marks you as either a faithful Witness or an unfaithful one. But Jehovah is forgiving so long as you make correction to do what's right in this matter from now on. (Acts 3:19)

Jehovah loves you and will help you to succeed. Pray to him about this matter and continue to pray no matter how it goes and he will guide you. I will also pray for you. [Jun 30, 2016, 2:15 pm]

DefendingFaith: How can I maintain self-control in a religious debate?

DefendingFaith wrote [May 26, 2016 at 10:49 am]:

Hello, I was just curious as to your thoughts on the growing number of people spreading the lies about JWs. [. . .] I myself have tried to help people [on Youtube] to understand the belief but it appears they tend to pay more attention to the myths as apposed to actual truth. [(Mostly just to point out to those who could be mislead by those apostates. I try not to say anything to other people on their channels but I have gotten caught up in some arguments online with folks in the past. Only assuming they could just be misguided sheep perhaps part of Christendom or otherwise. I generally keep to myself, I do find it difficult tho, not to speak up when I hear people making accusations or posting mistruths online. So I almost feel compelled to say something on the matter.)]

I have used Elijah Daniel's blog as one of my main tools, but as usual most tend to discredit them cause they are biased, so I was also wondering if any other sites or individuals make unbiased arguments for the faith. I am a returning member of the orginization, was raised in the faith but fell out, now have had a reinvigerated spirit to learn and teach the truth. Been back for a little over a year now. Feels great, but cant seem to get over all the lies being spread. Always wanting to correct people or call people out even though I know how the bible feels on arguments. I have gotten caught up in some debates online, tends to get heated and I take the high road out of the situation.

JW Advisor: First, their numbers are not as great as they seem. The great majority of former members simply get on with their lives. Our opposers are simply becoming more outspoken because of the increasing news coverage. The reality is that all they do is parrot the statements of those who came before them. None of them give any real thought to the information from an unbiased perspective. They left because they have a complaining spirit and lack any sense of loyalty. (Jude 16-21)

However, we should never get into discussions with them. It is a disfellowshiping matter to unrepentantly talk to disfellowshiped or disassociated individuals. (2 John 8-11) They want you to get into debates with them so that they can wear down your faith and your loyalty and spread their complaining spirit to others just like gangrene; but we must reject such debates if we wish to stay loyal. (2 Timothy 2:16-19) Can bread remain free of corruption while in contact with corrupted bread? (1 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Instead, we must let the dead bury their dead. (Luke 9:60) Our ministry is not to the self-righteous not seeking treatment, but to those lowly in spirit seeking a physician. (Matthew 5:6; 9:11-13; Romans 3:23; Ephesians 2:1) My site is for disseminating the truth about these matters without debate so that some may be snatched from the fire. (Jude 22-23) Besides, deleting comments from our opposers without answering them turns out to be pretty cathartic.

I am not comfortable talking about other bloggers, except Elijah Daniels. Many either are apostates themselves who think they're doing some kind of noble thing, or else post their debates with apostates on their site, or simply share their own ideas instead of sticking to the facts or upholding established doctrine. I consider them all persona non grata and refuse to allow links to their sites in comments.

I have only made an exception for a single person because the scholarly research is very helpful despite improper linking. I link to his posts in the posts about the 607 BCE date, the UN N.G.O. issue and our policies on Child Abuse. Though I will eventually replace the two articles he does that in with my own articles.

I hope this helps. [May 26, 2016 at 12:06 pm]

JW Advisor: I hear ya, DefendingFaith. But there is a saying by Winston Churchill: "You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks." [June 26, 2016, 5:16 pm]

DefendingFaith wrote [May 26, 2016 at 12:45 pm]:

Thanks, yes this helps. I have already made some videos pertaining to these matters. Only for the sake of helping other discern, as you say pulling them out of the fire. I have had dealings with them, i have foolishly got into arguments but have since tried to steer clear of these things as i know they have ulterior motives or chips on their shoulders i suppose. Is there possibly alternative sites with the same objective as yours. I had mentioned Elijah Daniels as he has linked to a number of places such as yours for further info. Very great stuff you guys are doing here. I commend you for all the work you and the other brothers do. I'm sure this takes years to all get down packed and then put it up on a site for others to gain from.

JW Advisor: There's only one thing that matters: absolute loyalty to Jehovah God, Jesus Christ and to the organization that has proven its humility and faithfulness in holy spirit.

I know of no others that maintain as high of standards as mine and Elijah's. (Though our standards differ in a few areas, higher in some and lower in others.) That is why he is the only one I trust. [May 26, 2016 at 6:17pm]

JW Advisor: I agree. They really aren't growing in number as much as they're simply getting louder and using the same lies that others use. The internet gives them the venue.

You can get over the lies if you continually reflect on why you believe we have the Truth. If you have doubts, do not ignore them as if they do not exist. Settle them. This is where personal study is truly beneficial, and blogs like these. The links above were a big help. It gave me the organization's actual teaching on the matter in depth, and I began to see that apostates really lie a TON on the organization.

There was a bad week for me last year. I was so down spiritually that I did not even prepare for the meeting. There was an unresolved issue as regard a facet of our belief system and it had me down. But I researched and read many articles on the WT library one evening for a couple of hours, and got the organization's view on it.

After that night, I was fine. That's my recommended path of getting over lies. Check our actual teachings. Its like studying real money to spot the counterfeit. You don't study counterfeit money to know real money.

I also hope this helps too. [May 26, 2016 at 12:48pm]

Here's just a small example that popped up in my mind when thinking, DefendingFaith. Apostates will repeatedly claim that the Governing Body wants "rock star treatment" since the introductions of JW broadcasting. Do they? Well, if we just take what they say without thinking about it, we will believe that lie. But what comes to the mind of thinking Witnesses is how the GB have reduced their own roles on the station -- appearing every other month with a helper taking the lead in the month between.

Also, the article "Love does not behave Indecently" from the January 2016 WT clearly states concerning the GB and other well-known brothers:

"Second, realize that while it is good to respect these brothers and their wives, we would not want to treat them as celebrities".

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-january-2016/we-want-to-go-with-you/

That's how you deal with lies. Just check our views on the matter. [May 26, 2016, 4:53pm]

Sometimes, I look at apostates as a husband that divorces his wife, yet, he claims to have moved on but continues to stalk her and make up lies about her.

In the same vein, they "divorce" themselves from the organization, yet they read every publication that we print, every video we make, every JW broadcast episode we release, and make up lies about what we were saying in those things.

Anyone would look at them as crazy if they were doing that to an ex wife. But they got a new term for it, called "activism".

Imagine a man, standing outside the front of his ex-wife's home trying to convince her new husband that he is being "deceived" by holding up picket signs. Is that "activism" or craziness? [May 27, 2016, 12:18pm]

JW Advisor: Completely nutters. Apostates themselves are the reason I find apostasy repulsive. I would have avoided apostasy to begin with due to my strong sense of loyalty, like avoiding extramarital sex out of loyalty, but when the one trying to tempt you to fornicate is a diseased, shriveled crank-addicted transvestite with scraggly hair, a beard, cusses like a sailor, smokes like a chimney, and talks like Harvey Fierstein, it's pretty easy not to be tempted unless you're one yourself. That's how repulsed I am by apostates. [May 27, 2016 at 2:49]

JW Advisor: One more thing I wanted to point out about how "loud" opposers are is that they over-sell the negative things that go on in the organization with their daily accusations. This is simply designed to discourage us under the false notion that God's true organization would not have problems, or would never get anything wrong. I do not know where they got that from other than their own imaginations.

This is not surprising, as Revelation 12:10 says Satan is the accuser of our brothers "day and night" before God. [May 30, 2016 at 8:02pm]

DefendingFaith wrote [June 20, 2016 at 1:52pm]:

Yeah, I see the overall point. Its just as Satan wants it to be, he has his hands in every facet of life. We as either studies or full time ministers must be as pro active as possible at dismantling and setting things straight. All they want to do is slander Gods holy name and the people who serve him.

[. . .] So if I were to make a response to some of these lies and rhetoric thrown about online. What should be my way of presenting it. Should I bullet point topics commonly misinterpreted or just go out and call all the channels and websites out for what they say. Id rather not stir the pot on these subjects but rather use tact and just point out the flaws in reasoning and so on. I just need a little direction in the best ways to do this.

Like what should I reference if they want unbiased sources of info, since they tend to think they are a cult and the information is controlled and all that. Not sure how to effectively go at that one. Most of the sources iv found are of the JW faith, which is fine but just in case that don't fly, id like to have a stacked deck to combat that issue.

I'm sure this wont really get through to many of those individuals, I would rather cut off the attempts made to distort or misguide other people from the truth. That is really my main goal in the first place. Helping others discern since they don't have that ability as of yet.

JW Advisor: I'm going to reiterate what I stated in response to your very first query: We should never get into discussions with them. [Period] They are not seeking to learn from you. They are not curious about the Bible. Their cup is already full and you can't empty it for them to refill it. Leave them alone and walk away. Who cares if they think you're copping out? We shouldn't care what they think at all. They have already made up their minds. It's not up to us to change them.

If someone wants to argue about doctrine, policy or anything else, just leave them be. There is no good approach to such discussions at all. Nothing good can come of it. Anything you say is simply throwing pearls before swine. As Jesus said:

"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you enter the house, greet the household. If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city." (Matthew 10:11-15)

If a student has questions, you will have plenty of time to answer them, but anyone that wants to argue only wants to either hold you up from going door to door or to convert you.

As for online, you should not be posting on sites of our apostates and opposers. Whether you read them is a conscience matter, but to post on their sites is to bring dishonor to Jehovah. Jesus did not go chasing after the Pharisees, but the Pharisees went chasing after him.

As to making a website to defend our beliefs, or the organization's decisions, as I have done at Opposers Dismythed, it requires deep research, careful reasoning and simply putting those things in writing, but not posting anything that appears weak or lacking careful thought. Also, every article requires stating what apostates say on the subject as a matter of course in order to be addressed, but we should not directly quote any statement made by an apostate, nor post transcripts of debates. The audience does not need anything more than an accurate depiction of the facts. The more they are exposed to lies, the more likely they are to get to believing those lies. Also, try to get each point across with as few words as possible. Our apostates tend to be insufferable bores who love to hear themselves talk. So inversely, truth-seekers should be people of few words who humbly say only what needs to be said. [June 22, 2016 at 3:01pm]

JW Advisor: I completely agree. They are not seekers of truth, and that's why they're apostates to begin with, so reasoning with them is out of the question.

Some may reason that if we have the truth and are confident in it, then reading and interacting with them should pose no harm to us. I like the illustration used by the organization that if you instill strong morals into your children, would you then deliberately expose them to pornography? After all, they should resist if their morals are strong enough, right? The fact is, you protect against harmful influences by identifying them and avoiding them, not by exposing yourself to them.

This is the faulty reasoning used to lure our brothers into poisoning their own minds. If you have the truth, then what are you afraid of?

My answer is that I am afraid of believing lies.

I say that because its not that the organization is hiding something from us that they don't want us to know so they instruct us to avoid apostates. Part of the reason is that the organization has dealt with apostasy in the past, and they know that the goal is to lure you out of God's organization.

I can also understand the urge to defend the faith. Lies hurt, so I will be honest about that, and they can make one angry. But you can successfully defend against accusations because they are made out of ignorance, or misunderstanding​/misconception. You cannot make a defense to folks who simply don't care to learn, or who deliberately spread lies like apostates. [June 22, 2016 at 8:51pm]

Here is some information that I think will serve you well that can help you be aware of apostates tricks. The most often used trick is "appeals to emotion". Examples of this are: "your organization doesn't care about children", or "you deny 'life saving' medical care", and the most often used one, "you break up families".

The goal is to get you angry and to accept their statements as true based on that emotion, and since these statements trigger our inborn protective instincts, we are more prone to react by removing ourselves and others from that alleged harm, without considering whether or not the harm is real or imagined.

In your case, they want you to leave the organization, and they want non-witnesses to fear joining.

You can have better self-control when you have realized the trickery used, and the purpose of it. [July 29, 2016 at 5:58pm]